Unfair Fights
In this podcast, Patrick Hynds and Steve Baroody will talk to different long-term practitioners of various martial arts, many of them masters, and explore the quiet part that no one usually addresses. That being that outside of sport there are no fair fights. The stated goal of almost all martial arts is to help practitioners to defend themselves, so we will explore how that goal is and is not being realized in the real world.
Patrick Hynds is a West Point graduate, decorated Gulf War veteran, Master of Uechi Ryu Karate-do, as well as a black belt in several other styles studied over the last 50 plus years. He has been hosting podcasts related to his company, Pulsar Security, on Cyber Security and Quantum Computing for years and has been a frequent guest on numerous podcasts for over 20 years.
Steve Baroody is an instructor in Modern Arnis, Isshinryu Karate, and Tomiki Aikido. A practicing chiropractor, he has been investigating the anatomy and physiology of self-defense for decades.
Unfair Fights
Episode 7: Striking Angle Numbering Systems in Filipino Martial Arts
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In Episode 7, Patrick and Steve dig into striking angle numbering systems in the Filipino martial arts. The discussion starts with the combat clock and works its way through zone defense, OODA loops, and why cataloguing twelve angles might actually slow you down in a fight. Along the way the conversation opens up into how good drilling moves technique out of the conscious mind, the value of sensitivity drills like push hands and sticky hands, and what it really means to train something until it's automatic.
Welcome to Unfair Fights.
SPEAKER_02Hey Steve, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_00I'm good, Patrick. How are you?
SPEAKER_02Good, and uh ready to talk martial arts, uh, unfair fights.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and today I want to talk about Filipino striking angle numbering systems, which will become clear in a minute. Okay. Uh, but first, given your background, I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the way the military uses the clock to orient people as far as where something is coming from.
SPEAKER_02Um so it it there's there's two different ways. One is the infantryman's clock, which is where you're worried about the land surface. So if I'm facing a direction, then an enemy is at 12 o'clock. If it's at six o'clock, it's behind me. And you know, there's three and and and nine. Um there's also the flying analogy where you know they're at six o'clock high or or 12 o'clock high, where it's a it's more of a vertical um as far as that goes. I'm I'm less familiar with that latter one because I was an infantryman, but I'm definitely familiar with like it, you know, they're over at our 11 o'clock. It means it's to the slightly to the left of what we're facing.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So what I'm gonna be talking about in general comes out of the system that I practice, which is modern Arnice, and this is Remy Prasas's system that he brought to the U.S. One of his uh personal students, who was also a student of his brother Ernesto Prasos, is a guy whose name I'm probably gonna mispronounce because I've never heard him say it. He goes by Hawk, H-O-C-K. Um, somebody that you know well who is fluent in German, a native speaker, told me that his last name is pronounced Hoheim. It's H-O-C-H-H-E-I-M. That sounds right. I speak no German.
SPEAKER_02Hoheim, yeah, sounds right.
SPEAKER_00I don't I don't know how Hoch says it, but Hoch's been um teaching martial arts out of Texas for many, many years. And despite learning different numbering systems from both Pres brothers, he always used what he calls the combat clock. And this is the high clock that you described. So 12 o'clock is overhead, three o'clock is to my right, uh, nine o'clock is to my left, and my interpretation of six o'clock is six o'clock is a straight thrust.
SPEAKER_02Okay, uh, yeah. Six o'clock is usually not used in that context because it would mean that below you.
SPEAKER_00Right. Where that's my interpretation.
SPEAKER_02Um although the fighter pilots might use that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Now, in terms of the way Hawk teaches it, that gives you four angles to start. And he has advanced students to all 12. All 12 to me gets to be a bit much, and just doing those four I find actually a little too simple. Um, but again, I respect it because you don't have to spend a lot of time explaining it to people.
SPEAKER_02It's always good to start off simple.
SPEAKER_00Right. Now I'm gonna do a little bit of modern Arnice heresy in this episode. Um, modern Arnice teaches 12 angles, and no, they are not the 12 angles of the clock at all. Um, and they get very confusing. The first five, I believe, come out of an another system which is referred to as cinco teros, which means five angles or five strikes. And that's actually for the use of the knife.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00But what you can get out of Cincoteros that is really, really useful, um, is a quadrant system.
SPEAKER_02Are you just trying to teach me Spanish?
SPEAKER_00Is that is that what's happening here?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um the the quadrant system, you know, you would put, or so I'm gonna use uh a version of it taught by a guy named Michael Janich. Um Michael Janich has been teaching uh Filipino martial arts practically applied to self-defense for many, many years. He's a former um army intelligence and linguist. Um very interesting. So uh, Mr. Janich, if you're listening, we would love to have you as a guest. Interesting guy, very smart. Um and what this what the system, the way he teaches it is for my right hand, upper right is one, upper left is two, lower right is three, lower left is four. And then you have to deal with the center line.
SPEAKER_02So it's kind of like the Macarena.
SPEAKER_00It's kind of like the Macarena. You you could say that, you could say that. Um, but you really need to just identify two things at any point. Which side of the center line is the attack coming from, and is it above or below my elbow? Because that's where the line between the upper and lower is. Okay. And the virtue of this is it makes you very fast to figure out how to do something.
SPEAKER_02To zone defense.
SPEAKER_00It's zone defense, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think you'll find that that's very much at the core of the traditional Okinawan defense systems where they're the blocks, uh whether it's a shoot on or a gate on or those kinds of things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Now, in the in the pressos, Remy pressos system, you might kind of be able to say the first five cover that quadrant system, but they really don't exactly, unless you're dealing with knife. And the 12 angles, that's the way it's often taught, actually come from 12 targets that come from another older system. And when you got to identify 12 different angles or even just slices of a pie, I don't think that speeds up your response time. I think it actually slows it down a lot.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Paradox of choice.
SPEAKER_00Which is one of the reasons I don't like this system. Now, for those modern arnisdors out there who don't like hearing this, I would also reference you to Tim Hartman, who's out in Buffalo. Master Hartman was the highest ranking person, as far as I know, that uh Remy ever promoted, at least in the U.S., he's very talented. And he ditched the 12 angles. If you teach them in their original context from the other system, they're actually 12 targets and it's almost a kata.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. You're well, you're in good company then.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. So again, Master Hartman, if you're listening, we would love to interview you. I might actually get send him an email uh because he might be a fun guest. I don't know if he's available or not. Um, but this system using a zone defense idea explicitly is one of the more useful things that the Filipino martial arts brings out uh in terms of fundamentals. And for me, the difference between a fundamental and a basic is a basic is introductory, and a fundamental is something that you do it that way every time.
SPEAKER_02You carry, yeah, it's a it's a principle, it carries through.
SPEAKER_00Carries through every every aspect.
SPEAKER_02I think that that's a good definition.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And I I don't think I got, I don't think that's mine. I think I heard that someplace. Um now the one of the more confusing things about the Filipino martial arts is that generally those that zone defense I taught you, it switches when you switch to your left hand.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um now there's something to be said for that as far as bilateralism, learning how to really do things with both hands with the fill, which the Filipino martial arts truly excel at. But it also can be sort of complicated to install. Um, and again, if we go back to Hawke's system, Hawke's system is super easy to install. You install it in the first 30 seconds.
SPEAKER_02So I've always been a little bit worried about something that since we're in the military vein, so jet fighters have a problem that they call cognitive load, which is you've got too much to think about. And so they try to they try to use you know it's muscle memory and automatic reactions and things like that. But having you having to decide puts you into what's called an OODA loop. Have you ever heard of an OODA loop O O D A? Observe, orient, decide, and act from Colonel Boyd. Exactly. And so you the OODA loops, the small the tighter you can make them, the faster you can react.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02Okay. And so you you want to be careful about overintellectualizing a style, right? Because you it's you don't have uh I mean one of my knocks on some of the Kempos um is when they they go to the point where it's an alphabet, like, well, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do this. And they and they plan 18 mech motions and the the enemy gets a vote, right? Right. Michael Jacks, Michael, you know, Michael Jackson. Michael uh Michael Tyson said, Everyone's gonna plan until they get punched in the face. For sure. And the you know, in the military, it's like you know, no plan survives contact with the enemy. That's probably a more a better way to say that.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02So you you have to have these oodaloops, and so if you have this plan of, well, I'm gonna do this to them and then I'm gonna do this to them, they won't do what you want them to do, even if they're not skilled, they're just gonna fall differently than you want them to, or their their their balance is their their weight is gonna be on the wrong foot. So you have to live in this oodaloop. And and I think that having you know 12 conditions you look for and you have to think about and process is is it maybe a bridge too far. Maybe it's just me espousing my own limitations.
SPEAKER_00No, I think you're I I think you're actually describing something which takes me to the next step of this. Within zone defense, it doesn't matter what's coming in that quadrant. Yeah. Because you have to move the same way to deal with it.
SPEAKER_02Nice. So fist kick.
SPEAKER_00Well, let's let's take this one. If it's coming in my my upper right quadrant, my number one quadrant, it doesn't matter if it's his right hand or his left. It doesn't matter at all. So I have to discern just two pieces of information which reduces that cognitive load. Is it high or low? Is it left or right? And if I can't tell left or right, there is that third piece of information that I need to move off the center line.
SPEAKER_02So I when I think about uh so I have a game I play with, I don't spar very much. I don't I don't do um rolling very much. I I'm I guess I'm on I'm a uh an armchair martial artist to some extent, though I'm gonna fix that soon. Um, but I think about it a lot, I talk about it a lot. And I have a game that probably is the time that I do the most sparring-like activity, which is I'll take, I'll have a kid like my grand's kids or friends of ours, and they'll be you know playing games, and I'll say, okay, I'll take a sock or something, a kerchief, and I'll put it in my shirt so that it's hanging down at my solar plexus, and I'll tell them to grab it. And I'll just block them and I'll see how long I can go before they actually dive on me, or or they get a good punch where they grab it. And most of the time I can hold them off for minutes by just blocking. And it if they go low, I I I don't think about every block because there's usually more than one per second. Yes. Because they're they're reaching with both hands, and so uh the decision, the you're using the word decision, and I get what you mean, and I I'm trying not to be pendantic. No, no, it's muscle memory. It has to be you, you, you, you're like, if you've after you've done it for 10 years, it's like uh oh, I I blocked that kind of automatically because it's habit. I see something coming in, I block it. If I have to stop and say, oh wow, there's a punch coming, maybe I should block it. It's too late.
SPEAKER_00Well, okay, okay.
SPEAKER_02This is this is a good criticism, and I think I have a way to answer this, which is that Well, I mean, you still have to start with the targets, the angles, the decisions, but eventually it has to become muscle memory as well.
SPEAKER_00Without question. Without question. You don't fight in your conscious mind, you fight in your subconscious mind. Just the same as you don't drive consciously, you drive in your subconscious.
SPEAKER_02I didn't want the Stadies to know that.
SPEAKER_00So the discussion of the zone defense is something that happens at the beginning, but the logic of it carries through everything. Because the training methods are designed to make those responses, as you described, automatic. What I'm saying is that on a perceptual level, the cognitive load is actually pretty low because it doesn't matter where it's coming from, if you don't see it, it's gonna hit you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You have to perceive it. And then the training method has given you the skills, just like when you learn how to drive, that person who's coming into your blind spot real fast, you don't cognitively take the time to think about it. You assess where you can move, and you move in the subconscious. That's the way you react.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_00So, one of the things I like to teach my uh modern Arne students is that there's actually really just three fundamental movements that we use. You know, you talk about um Gedan Barai, you talk about uh Chudan Uke, um, and in a lot of ways, two of those three movements are Gedan Barai and uh the old Shuto Uki from that you might, or I'm not sure what they'd call it in Tang Tsu do, but you know, your knife hand block, those cover two of the movements, and then they're used. Um, well, okay, so I'm gonna quote somebody else who was a friend of Michael Janich's but is now deceased. Very interesting guy named Bob Orlando. He was a C lot player, and he had the best line. So if I do this, I if I do this Gate on Barraye block, I'm just using the label block for a minute. And you say, What is that? His answer was it is what it does. So it doesn't matter what somebody thinks it is. The question is, what can I use those same movements for? Oh, that's very Bruce Lee. It's very Bruce Lee, but it also, again, if it's built into the logic of the training system in our Nice, it makes you extraordinarily fast. Because it's like you train it, so one of these movements is with one hand moving outside to in high and moving inside to out low. That would be the Gade on Barai type movement. You put that into a repetitive drill where you're you're bouncing back and forth with the same with the um with your partner who's doing the same thing. In a matter of a minute, you've probably got 20 repetitions of it. Yeah. You know, so the ability to uh feed that into your nervous system and acquire it, and then plug in another variable. Okay, so this this time the punch is coming from quadrant two. I use that same motion over and over again, it builds it in very, very fast. Now, this is only my opinion, but this is why I think for fighting on your feet, I've never seen anything teach real serious martial arts skills faster than the Filipino martial arts.
SPEAKER_02Fair. Uh yeah, when I was younger, I noticed that if you wanted to learn how to fight quick, you could do boxing or you could do um uh uh taekwondo. I didn't know Taekwseudo back in those days. And if you wanted to be able to fight what I thought was better, then it took longer because I felt that it was better to be able to actually be able to block. But that took a year or more. Weichiru, it took a lot longer, and you had to be patient. And but it also lended itself to being able to fight at an older age because I couldn't do the taekwondo stuff that I used to be able to do, the tangsudo stuff that I used to be able to do with nearly the same alacrity, speed, power, but I can do all the weichiru stuff.
SPEAKER_00So there's excuse me, there's two different things there which I think are really interesting. One's conditioning. I'm gonna come back to that in a second. The first directly pertaining to acquiring real skills. Sparring can do that to a certain degree because you're doing stuff in real time.
SPEAKER_02As long as you're using I'm sorry to interrupt. One thing I would say is most people don't benefit from more than 10% of their training time sparring because they end up introducing personalizations that are not helpful.
SPEAKER_00Well, the the other thing about it is sparring brings a number of artifacts to it. One of which is if I really hit the guy, his body's gonna move. That force is gonna go somewhere. But in sparring, you don't do that, you don't clobber each other. And so you don't, unless there's an accident, you don't see that reality. So that's one. You're also generally limited in what techniques you're gonna do, because you have to do that for safety's sake.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, judo versus jujitsu.
SPEAKER_00Judo versus jujitsu.
SPEAKER_02Judo is what we practice so we don't destroy our opponent.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So it brings those limitations. Um the the other thing I'll say about it is that sparring as a training method, particularly historically, I understand this has changed a little bit recently because of concussions, but um historically it produces winners and losers. You know, it's a sport. It's a sport, and some people are not going to, I don't mean this in a mortal sense, but they're not really gonna survive the training. They're not gonna come back. It's not gonna work for them because they're gonna get too beat up.
SPEAKER_02So I have an anecdote I have to share. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00No, no, you don't have to keep you don't have to apologize.
SPEAKER_02I was uh I was in a national tournament for Tong Sudo uh out in LA when I was at West Point, and um I won. I I I I was fighting a a garage mechanic from Los Angeles, and I destroyed him in points. And yeah, I may not have been, I mean, it wasn't just tung pseudo, but there was a lot of tung pseudo practitioners there, and I and I he I wouldn't let him touch me, so I won. And he punched me on the bow and knocked my teeth in.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_02I mean, talk about a low blow. He was he was excommunicated very quickly. But I'm sure some people can't take the uh can't take the heat uh win that tournament, but um at the cost of a root canal.
SPEAKER_00It's not just emotional. Um, like uh the Japanese Imperial Army taught bayonet fighting, um what is known as um jukenjutsu. And so they would use modified kendo armor, heavily modified, really robust, um like a throat protector and a big left shoulder protector, because their their mock bayonet was the equivalent of a two by four with a lacrosse ball on the end. And the amount of damage that you could potentially take could be life-altering. You know, so the it brings, and that's an that's a very extreme example, I know that, but you could you can pretty easily find others. People get hurt, um, which is why I I think I've heard that in even in MMA before matches, they don't spar heavy any. More because of the risk of concussion. And I think that's a worthy subject of discussion. But the you m you talked about your conditioning in Wei Chi, and I think that that's important too. I was talking to somebody earlier who I know for a fact right now is listening to this.
SPEAKER_02And he's one of our two listeners.
SPEAKER_00Our listeners number in the tens. So one of my rules with body weapons, I know we've talked about body weapons previously, is as soon as you are able to properly form the body weapon, it should be relatively impervious. So like your weichy thumb, that's hard to do. But once you can actually keep it in place, it should be pretty strong.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there's a principle that animals don't fight in a way that hurts them. Other than, you know, bees. Yes. Take bees out of the equation where they leave their stinger and die. But but a bear, a lion, none of them fight in a way that it will injure them because that defeats the purpose. Right. You should do the same thing. You shouldn't do anything that causes you damage. You want to share the damage. You don't want to keep any for yourself. Yes. And that tracks.
SPEAKER_00It can take a while to be able, again, to use your boxiken example. Um, it can take a while to be able to get your hand to do that.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00You know, and then you get into the kind of uh conditioning that we talked about very early on uh for power, the older ideas in martial arts, that takes a long time to get the feel. So I think the the sort of the tactical skills, if they're good ones, they should be relatively quick to acquire.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there's a there's another side side of it, which is that most styles start teaching you hard, and then you learn the soft as you uh as you uh elevate in the system. So like you you learn the shoken on the first month, but you don't use the shoken for the first four years typically. I I know anybody under black belt that's using a shoken that's not not gonna like risk they they I mean they learn it, they practice it, they do it, but it's very, very hard to it's exactly like the pushkin.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And I think that these um hand weapons can be so powerful, but they just require a lot of practice.
SPEAKER_02Uh when you gotta know what you can tolerate, what you can actually hit with it, you know.
SPEAKER_00I think the I think the biggest thing is that the it is relatively easy to injure yourself in the conditioning process. So you have to move slowly so that you don't.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, agreed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So the idea of a zone defense is an early fundamental, but you don't use it as a piece in its own right. It's there to guide the training, which should take you to the level of doing things somewhat automatically.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, you so you learn the the techniques so that you can practice the techniques so that they can become the automatic things. Like it's like I'll I'll give you another weird analogy. I and I'll probably use this every 10 episodes. Um if I've already used it, I apologize. So uh we were here in Germany. I'm not in Germany right now, but I was recently. We were in Germany training for anti-armor ambushes with my platoon when I first was a lieutenant in in Germany. And we we used to go to this area of the woods where we'd have a couple of vehicles and we'd practice that, okay, the first tank comes through and we're gonna have a strike team here and we're gonna hit them there, and we're gonna and we practiced it over and over again. And one of the soldiers said, Hey, this is stupid. And I said, Why is it stupid? And he says, because we're never gonna come across a tank ambush exactly this configuration. I said, No, we're not. And he says, but we keep practicing this one in exactly this configuration. I said, That's right, and we're gonna keep practicing. He's like, That's stupid. And I said, Well, you might be right, but here's the here's the concept. You can't, how many different ways could a tank anti-armor ambush evolve? Infinite. The road could be straight, it could be curved, it could be this. If I can get you to master this one, you can then modify it to accommodate any other variable, but you have to master it. Right. So the mastery of a technique, uh like I might do a circular block. Well, I'll do the entire circular block. I'm never going to do that circular block in its entirety in a fight, but I can do any aspect of it, any piece of it in a fight if I know the whole thing.
SPEAKER_00Each technique needs to be a crescent wrench.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00Adjustable to different situations.
SPEAKER_02I thought you meant it's hard and easy to hit somebody in the head with.
SPEAKER_00Well, there's that too.
SPEAKER_02Um, so you mentioned uh the Kempo combinations, and there is something I don't I don't mean any assault there, because I know but it leads some junior students astray, is my complaint.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So here's one thing that I've heard, a use of them that I think is absolutely fantastic. If what is done with the idea is it allows you to generate a new combination to practice under different circumstances each class. You know, you take one piece from category A, one piece from category B, C, and D, and you sequence them. And each time you generate a new permutation, it allows you to basically generate classes indefinitely.
SPEAKER_02I think it has great value if you use it to practice. I think it has it has damaging value if you actually expect that to go forward. So uh, for example, my brother's grandson, very, very good kid, studies this style. And he's great. He's really good at it. And one of the things I made clear to him was because he wanted to show me a new technique that was like a four, five-step technique. Yep and I went through it with him and I let him do all the moves, and then I said, okay, let's try it again. And I didn't cooperate. Right. And I I said I didn't let him establish a hold that he needed. And I said, okay, what I want you to do is make sure you know what to do when it goes wrong at any one of those steps.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02And and it's helped him, I think, um, open his eyes about what he's learning and how he can apply it and all that stuff.
SPEAKER_00And and I think that that fits with what I was just saying, because you can use it as this teaching tool. Okay, so we we throw this wrist lock in. Okay, what are the different places that this can be applied? Today we're gonna do this one. Tomorrow we're gonna skip it, but the next week we're gonna come back to it again and we're gonna apply it in a completely different place, just so that you start to build up this repertoire of, okay, I can improvise this. Yeah, I think that that's a very interesting use of it. Um, I don't know how often that's done, but um, I'm trying to come up with his name. Paul Vunak of Jeet Kune Do Fame talks about that a lot as a way, again, of running uh techniques. But you brought up one other thing I want to do. I want to name drop one more time. Um, so you talked about your Wei Chi blocks. Um, there is a podcaster and instructor named Adam Chan who teaches um Chinese martial arts. Again, Sifu Chan, if you're listening, would love to hear from you. I love your work. Uh, he has really put things in context for me, just in general terms for um Chinese martial arts. And I heard him say somewhat recently about push hands that push hands training is for when, whether with it is a punch, a spear, a sword, I do the movement and my opponent deflects. It's offensive. It's learning over and over what to do in that instant of contact with the opponent.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I have a an instrument, I have a I consider her one of my instructors in Tai Chi. I don't see her, I've only seen her t once or twice. Um, a woman named Lily who's really great, and she does that that flowing hands very aggressively. Very aggressively.
SPEAKER_00Well, um, I and and it reminds me of the Kotaki Thai.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. A lot. There's a there's a have you ever heard of sticky hands? Oh yeah. So that that's a very good because it I find it helps develop the instinct far better because it it's it's almost like the um the ability to feel the kazzushi of judo, of feeling someone's balance. Oh, yes, it's the it's the blocking equivalent of that. So I really like that exercise, and I think it's very it's a very good one to use.
SPEAKER_00Well, and and tactically, you have to make that determination and react in a split second. So doing a lot of again, I'm gonna quote Vunak here, flight time on those push hands, those energy and sensitivity drills, so that when you do run into that one split second, it's easy.
SPEAKER_02I think it develops your instinct. I think it goes beyond because it's not a thought drill, it's just a you get into it and now you you you feel it. And the thinking is the mistake. If you think you you're lost, right?
SPEAKER_00The the issue is that the responses are gonna be relative to your particular style, so you can only do the drill. I believe it's not that you can't do it with somebody from another style, you can do that all you want. You have to focus on what your style tells you to do in that moment. You know, um, and I again I don't know if you if in Wei Chi your Koteki tie includes um, I've seen versions where you're hooking your hands sort of inside of your wrist to inside of your wrist and rolling to the outside. I've seen rolling inside outside.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, this so you know the Sunshine Am movement with the arm flared? I've seen it where we've we've you you basically have two people with their arm out and and you're you're doing the arm strikes where you're basically take you're fighting for the same space.
SPEAKER_00Perfect. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah. So this is interesting. I didn't expect it to evolve in this direction, but I think we covered a lot of stuff in a way that could be quite useful for folks.
SPEAKER_02So we we we cut, I mean, uh we burned a half an hour pretty quickly. Is there anything else we want to cover before we draw to a close?
SPEAKER_00That I I think that was actually very complete.
SPEAKER_02Okay, fair enough. Well, well, hopefully everybody joins us next time, whoever everyone is, and uh and uh hopefully this has been useful. It's always useful to me to talk to you, so I appreciate you.
SPEAKER_00Likewise. Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, everybody. See you next time.
unknownBye.