SPEAKER_00 0:38

Welcome to Unfair Fights.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Welcome to the Unfair Fights Podcast, Steve. How are you doing? I'm good, Patrick.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

How are you?

SPEAKER_02 0:48

I'm good. The weather's getting better. And I understand we have an interesting topic you want to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Yeah, I want to talk about distance and footwork in the Filipino martial arts today.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Now, in a moment, our listeners might want a sheet of paper to write a few things down in order to keep following this. Because there are some details. The first thing to deal with is the concept of distance. But actually, I just remembered one other thing I want to go back to first, which is the caveats for this. Filipino martial arts systems vary wildly. I am a practitioner and teacher of modern Arnice, the Remy Pressus lineage. But what I'm going to talk about is more of a generic Filipino footwork system that is at least somewhat related to what is taught in Piketty Tertia Kali. Now, I've only had a handful of lessons in Piketty Tertia Kali, and I won't tell you from who so that he doesn't take any blame. We'll talk about it, I promise. But so that he doesn't take any blame for what I don't know. I've also made an extensive study of the Dog Brothers footwork system. They were heavily influenced by Piketty Tertia. So for our listeners, um, this is not going to track exactly. I think that it is worthwhile nonetheless. Something to explore. That's the disclaimer. So in the Filipino martial arts, there are various distancing systems. And even though I just mentioned the Dog Brothers, I'm actually going to deviate from theirs. So the most commonly used system, and all these terms are roughly Spanish, begins with the distance at which you can hit your opponent's hand with your weapon, but not reach their body. Okay. And that's referred to as largo or long, long range. And this is important because if you're dealing with weapons and you can hit their hand and use your weapon on their hand, you can do what is referred to as defanging the snake. You have taken the weapon away from them and now you are much safer.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

So the second one is medio or medium distance, where your weapon can hit their head or their body. And I think this is what most people would in general think of as being in range. The third distance is known as corto or short range. And this is where the butt of your weapon, basically your fist, the butt is referred to as the punio in Filipino martial arts, your punio can strike your opponent's head or body.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

So those are three very different distances, and they necessitate different things in practice and training.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

Yeah, most people are comfortable on the first. They get ever increasingly less comfortable as we get closer to the last.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

That's right. That's right. Um, and I'm not gonna go into this today, but the other hand, the checking hand, comes into play only once you get into middle range and closer. If you try to use it at long range, you're gonna get hit.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

It just doesn't work. So those distances are very, very important to understanding footwork if only because that's your bottom line.

unknown 4:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

It doesn't it doesn't really matter how you get there as long as you're in the right place at the right time.

SPEAKER_02 4:31

So so we've seen you've seen lots of fights where, you know, tournaments, sport, whatever, uh where it's not a grappling style where they chase each other. One comes in and the other runs away, and the other one comes in and the other one runs away, and and they they basically go back and forth linearly. And um, and that's that's because neither one of them has any confidence in their ability to block. So distance is their only only defense. Now in weapons, people are much more likely to to block with a weapon.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

Right.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

So there's there's there's there's the assumption that you're going to have to physically use your weapon to stop their weapon on a strike that could do you harm. In fists, it's a it's a very different formula. So there's a different mentality on distance when you have a weapon, I think.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Well, and I I think now I'm gonna say something that may not apply to your style of Wei Chi. But most karate styles I have seen, including my own with Ishinru, try to derive their footwork from kata. Where you're fighting, to quote Master Ken, invisible people.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

And that's not very useful once you actually have somebody moving around in front of you. So most of those styles end up changing what they do in sparring.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Yeah, this the one of the problems that I see with a lot of kata is a lot of kata is theoretical, but not implemented. I've I've seen many, many styles where I never saw any of the moves in the kata fought used in a fight. Whereas in Weichi, uh, you know, I I have seen it go both ways.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

But we it's a counterpunch style. And though there's not as many counterpunch styles, because in order to counter punch, you have to absorb or block or or be out of the way of the of the attack and you risk it. It's a big risk. Oh, yes. Yes. And the same is true, but that's very true of weapons. You miss the block, you're dead.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Right. Right. And in fact, in the Filipino martial arts, most of what look like blocks are practiced at a longer distance than they're used by a couple of inches, because you're really applying the block to your opponent's hand.

SPEAKER_02 6:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

And that goes to that defang concept, which is the primary strategy.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

Well, and and you can't really do that in practice more than once or else.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Right. Right. Filipino martial arts. Filipino martial arts are practiced with rattan sticks generally because rattan is actually the safer option. It still hurts, but it doesn't hurt like oak or hickory. Oak or hickory will really damage you. And you can get rattan, that's really it's almost what you might call a switch. You know, go cut a switch. Um the distances are important because you need to be at the right place at the right time. Now, the there are a series of common um footwork patterns. The first have to do with triangles. And there are generally speaking four different triangles that are used. There's the male triangle, which is an equilateral triangle point up. There's the female triangle, which is the equilateral triangle point down. There's the diamond, and there's if you took two triangles and put their points up against each other, it makes kind of an hourglass shape, and it's referred to as the hourglass. Now, I spent a lot of time looking at the male triangle because almost every Filipino style talks about it, and almost never do they actually define how you use it.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Is that that when you when you say up, do you mean towards the enemy?

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Uh yes. Towards the opponent. But the trick is the one of the corners of the base of that triangle is you and your opponents in front of you. This is where the paper comes in, where I suggested it for our readers. And you are beginning at long range at best.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

And so you take a step at a 60-degree angle to the point of the triangle, and that's for probing. You're you're entering a little bit, you're taking a shot to see how he reacts, and then you step off to the other end of the triangle and you're still at long range, you're still safe.

SPEAKER_02 9:08

Okay. So it's j it's just all long range.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

That triangle.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Now, the one everybody talks about is the female triangle where it's pointing at you and you're at the point of the triangle.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

And as the opponent comes towards you, so they're closing distance. They're going from long to medium, and you are stepping in at four at 60 degrees, and so you're closing distance further.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

But to the oblique.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

To the oblique. And we're going to come back to this.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

That's what everybody talks about. You're right. Everybody talks about that.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Everybody talks about it, but it's actually really hard to implement. We're going to come back to it because there's a trick to that.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Well, did Mike Tyson say everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face?

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. Yes. Um now the diamond to me is really interesting. This is if you take two equilateral triangles and you put their bases together, so you have a diamond shape. Right. And you're starting out at corto, I'm sorry, at largo at long range, you angle off on the oblique, and then you take another step, and you are face to face, you are at short range.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

This is the most used of all of these. You will see it every single day in most professional sports. You got a running back in football, and he's shimmying side to side to get around the guy in front of him. Yeah. That's the step. So that's the most, that's actually the most useful, but people don't talk about it that much. Um it is all offensive. This is I want to close the distance.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

And then the diamond, or I'm sorry, the the hourglass to me is interesting because it's the the upside down version of the diamond. And this is really, I think, for multiple attackers. You close to the inside so that they close to the inside, and then you move to the outside. Okay. It's to bring them inward. I think that's what it's about. Um, it also might be I want to faint inward and be able to keep moving if it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Also, think football, driving one way and suddenly shooting off in the other direction. Right. Now, the the one that everybody does, the female triangle. I have spent many years in sparring trying to angle when I am surprised by the guy's sudden attack. And it's incredibly hard to do.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Yeah, unless they're telegraphing.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Right. Yeah, but if you're I and I mean sparring, like the the guy's moving around, he may be fainting, he may be jabbing, and then suddenly he closes.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Trying to train myself to go off in an angle is hard. There is a trick which I will describe, but I think what really is going on with the female triangle is what you see in boxer Willie Pep's footwork. So I got to credit the YouTube channel, the modern martial artist, because they had a fabulous, fabulous video on Willie Pep's V-step.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

So what he would do is he would step in towards his opponent and he would jab. And as the guy responded, moving back towards him, he would step his feet together, and then he can step in any direction he wants to give him the best option as the other guy closes. Essentially, the female triangle step is counteroffensive.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

I do something, you react, and I'm ready to capitalize.

unknown 13:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

In a non-boxing environment, I could see where that would be suboptimal. Where there's sweeps and where, you know, balance. Because if you concentrate your balance with your feet together, depending on how extremely you do that, I could see how that would be something that people would feel vulnerable doing.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Definitely if there's a grappling, if the if grappling is an option, I can see that.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

Yeah, if it's a if it's a real encounter and there's no like marquee of Queensberry's rules being a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Well, and maybe it doesn't have to be quite all the way together. But I think the more important point is You're not in a wide stance. I'm not in a wide stance, and I have the initiative.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

He's reacting to me, so I have more time to plan my next move.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

True.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

And that's that's the virtue. Um again, the the only way that I've ever been able to make uh oblique footwork when surprised work is a trick from the Dog Brothers. Um they use what they call the false lead, and they'll put one foot forward and they will twist their body into that hip without really closing the hip. And what it means is that it's uncomfortable to do anything but move forward on an angle.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

And they do it for a very specific situation when they uh a confrontation is brewing, there's verbal stuff going back and forth, you don't know if it's about to get physical, but you know it's likely he's gonna use that big right hand. So you're twisted into your right hip so that you can step forward on an angle with your left foot.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

So is there a is there an advantage? Do you have to be faster, better balanced? What do you have, is there any advantage that you need physically in order to carry this out, or is this something that anybody can use? Because, you know, the the name of the podcast is Unfair Fights. That's right. Um, you know, the person who's really fast, the person who's really flexible. There's all sorts of techniques and things that favor you if you are the best at something. You're you're you're superior in some way.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Is this more than an attribute? No, no. Um, certainly with people with greater attributes. I mean, you look at you look at football players, they all know that they can shimmy side to side. Some of them are faster than others. But there's not a lot of people who think about this stuff when they fight or when they train to fight. True. Yeah. And so it can provide a really big advantage. That last one that we were talking about is very useful in self-defense because most attacks are going to come from their right hand. 90% of people are right-handed. And you can do this false lead that they talk about relatively surreptitiously.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Um, and it really, this is the only thing I've ever found that enabled me to angle when I didn't have the initiative.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

Yeah, I understand why you're saying we need to like look at the you might have to have paper to go through this because you're trying to think about like what's that, what how's that all line up?

SPEAKER_01 16:38

It definitely helps.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

This would seem to also be one of those light on your feet footwork things where it's it's not plotting, it's it's kind of like the boxer. It's more like akin to boxing footwork than it is to uh, you know, taekwondo footwork, that kind of thing, where it's much more wide stance.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Well, and and incidentally, since you brought up Taekwondo, what I'm about to state is my own opinion. I'm not stating this as fact.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

But I don't think we have enough listeners for hate mail yet.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Maybe not, maybe not, but there's still time. Um when you start using weapons, throwing a lot of kicks becomes problematic. Number one, if I have a stick and someone tries to kick me, I'm gonna, and I'm surprised, I'm gonna try to block with that weapon, which to their leg will damage the leg.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

Yeah, yeah. It's a it's it's a suboptimal strategy unless you're you've got to be 100%. You're gonna definitely make it.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

Definitely have to make that hit.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

You have to make that hit. And on top of that, um, if the other guy has a weapon, I want to use my feet for moving out of the way.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

You know, um, things where I'm off balance because I'm or things where I'm on a single point of balance, like throwing a kick. Um that poses risks. Um, and I also think in the self-defense world where you don't know what you might face, not being able to run away or being having trouble with that seems uh suboptimal, as you said.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Yeah. So I I'm not, I mean, I've boxed at West Point. I've done tight Taek Sudo, Taekwondo tournaments. Um, I've fought people in Shotokan and many other styles. But Weichiru is my primary style.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

Um, and so this is not something that I'm used to. I'm used to the obliques. So, as we talked about, the the the female diamond, uh, the female triangle. Um, but I'm also more used to waiting for them to show up and then hitting them after I block their attack.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:56

So this this is a different this is a different strategy here. Um I'm trying to think back to weapons and what where that philosophy goes in in Okinawan weaponry. Well, Okinawan weaponry is also different than Filipino.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Uh it's very different. I would say Okinawan weaponry probably bears significant um resemblance to Chinese weapons, which to my knowledge have not been fielded on the battlefield till the end of, I want to say it's the Qing dynasty, about 400 years ago. Before that, they were they were used on the battlefield. It was medieval, swords, spears, etc. By the time that whatever that latter dynasty fell, we were pretty close to the boxer rebellion. And, you know, repeating rifles make swords less useful.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

Unless you're really good.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Really good. John Wick. John Wick good. Yes, yes, Crouching Tiger.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so I mean, footwork is a big thing. So one of the one of the anecdotes that I've heard many times, I don't know if it's true, but it it feels like it might be right, is that back in the heyday of uh, you know, fight fighting arts in in warfare and gang warfare, that kind of thing, there was the concept that you would have multiple specialty styles, like Phoenix I fist is the the shoken that that you know Kanbo Mueichi learned in China, from what I understand. But you'd have styles that were unto themselves just about footwork and just about a single kick and just about a single type of fist. And you would posit them together, you would combine them to make a unique style that would be your own. And then, but but a very important one was a st was a footwork or a sti or a kicking or a footwork style. And I could definitely see this as a philosophy, a way of looking at things, a way of moving and it being very important.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Now, there's one other thing. So the Piketty instructor, Piketty Turjikali, is um definitely among the most well-represented Filipino styles in the U.S. Um These folks tend to be very talented. It's an uh with respect to the Piketty folks, it's almost obsessive in the level of how comprehensive the system is. Um from the footwork to the weapons they use, like they they cover everything. Um it's a style I respect. Um they say that there's that the footwork boils down to two things. One is triangles, and the other is called sidesteps. And the sidesteps are, even though that's the name they use, it's not an accurate one because these are pivoting techniques. Um, and they've got a 180 and a 90 degree. The 180 is basically facing one direction and pivoting on your feet so that you end up facing. The opposite direction.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Something you see in a lot of styles. That's not all that unusual. But it is important if you are potentially facing multiple attackers to be able to get to your six. Yeah. As quickly as you can. Now, in my style, we have uh our footwork is a little more limited. Um, but Remy Press has told my teacher that kata's are all about footwork. And his most important kata is uh kata number two. Kata number two is very, very simple. It's basically a hand combination with one of two footwork combinations. And the first uh footwork combination is the 180, and it is a set of steps that pivot you from facing one direction to 180 degrees. Nothing surprising. You see it in a lot of styles. And then the other one is just cutting that movement in half so you end up facing 90 degrees.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

Yeah. You know, Kanawan, we call that Magate, Mawate and Magate. Mawate turns you around, Magate turns you to the side.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Okay. Yeah. Well, I think that these concepts are specifically important if you are outnumbered.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Because if you're facing two or more opponents, the biggest threat is the guy hitting you in the back of the head.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Yeah. So I and I I I hate to keep bringing it back to Wei Chiru, but hell, that's what I do. So I'm gonna do that. So there's eight kata in Weichi Ru, and they're very linear in the beginning. San Chin goes up three steps, back three steps, up three steps, and then turns to the sides. And you know, it's very, very linear. And Kanchi was linear and with a little bit more. And then they as they go up, that you get a little bit more moving around. But when you when you get to Sansei Ru, it's a whirling dervis. It you're you're you do very little in the same direction, and it's very much going to this angle, going to that angle. It it becomes more of a like you're fighting a gang, is really what it looks like. And um, if you if you want to reduce it to that. Um the kata and weichiru are more about form and less about technique. They they inform you how you would formulate technique as opposed to them being this is this is the the technique, uh, especially with the three primary kata, which is San Chin, Sansei, Seisan, and Sansei Ru. So Sansei Ru is one of those Chinese katas. It comes to us from you know hundreds or it probably even thousands of years back. And so it's it's far more um refined or or battle tested, I guess, or proven. But you definitely see it. If you watch the pattern, it's just you're going in every different direction all over the place. And so that that supports that same concept as as you get to higher levels, you have to be more like I I really enjoyed when I was a black belt uh many, many years ago, I had a couple of young brown belts that I would spar with uh at the same time, and it was always fun to fight two at the same time. Uh nowadays, I'm 60 and I still fight my my grandson and uh a f a nephew of mine, uh great nephew, in the pool. And the game is they try to put me under the water, and I manage to throw them into each other and step aside, and you know, they try to get on you know 180 degrees away from each other. And my goal is to, with footwork, to not let them do that because that's the the greatest danger to me. So it all bears out with what you're saying. Well, and I recommend that as long as you're not gonna get drowned by those young people. Yes, when they're 18, I probably won't be doing that that much.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Right, right. Well, uh I I want to say one more thing about the sidesteps in a minute, but the the point that that brings up to me is uh in my Aikido style, uh Tamiki, we have this initial technique called Shomanate, which is a step forward palm to the palm to the face. And my favorite example, um I'm not a big football fan, even though I keep referencing it here. I reference it because it's useful.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

Um established.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

It's well established. It's also these are big, strong, tough guys moving fast. So if it can work against them, well, maybe there's something to it. Right. But my favorite example of Shominate is the stiff arm with a running back.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Because you watch them knock each other over. And uh these are not light men.

SPEAKER_02 26:35

No. And they're moving fast.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

They're moving very fast. So what you see in that is footwork to evade multiple opponents and a striking strategy that is extremely efficient.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

And they're using their their weight, they're moving fast as well.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Where the head goes, the body follows. There's a lot of principles tied up.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Absolutely. It also, at least for us in Tamiki, um we begin in the worst position, which is directly in front of the guy.

unknown 27:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

So you start comfortable where things are bad.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Um, but the other thing I wanted to say about the sidesteps is that what we do in uh modern Arnice, I think has to do entirely with multiple attackers. Because either I'm gonna pass one and pivot around so that the two of them are both facing me where I used to be, or I'm gonna move at 90 degrees so I end up with them both facing me there. Right. Because the biggest fear, the biggest problem is the guy hitting me in the back of the head.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

Exactly, which is my pool example.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Right. Right. These take time. You gotta train them, you gotta figure out ways to work on them. They are not quick fixes, but they are very sophisticated ways of using what you already have. You know, uh, I think Sun Tzu said, attack that which cannot be defended, defend that which cannot be attacked.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

You know, so working at the proper distance in the right place at the right time is always useful.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

So distance and being, you know, being in a in the in the right place at the right time is a massive part of the strategy for almost every martial art. Is being in the right place in the right time, being able to again, because the only other thing you have is defense, is is blocking. And I think most people would rather depend on their footwork than their blocks.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

I think it's more efficient.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

I I I think it's it's just more survivable, you know, to be if if if you're in that what's that what's the name of the uh the the short distance that you you mentioned?

SPEAKER_01 29:01

Quarto.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

If you're in quarto and you miss, you're you're done. That's that's that's the whole thing, is you can't afford a mistake in a real fight because it's fatal. You don't recover from it. You don't shrug off getting hit by a lead pipe.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

You don't. Um I think it is worth pointing out here that generally in the Filipino right martial arts, middle range is regarded as the most dangerous because it is the range where you are most likely to experience a mutual kill.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

Yeah. Once you Do you ever watch the old Chinese kung fu movies? Kid with the golden arm?

SPEAKER_01 29:39

I don't think I saw that one, but I've seen a few.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

Oh my god. There's the the what I noticed is is a lot of them end with everyone dead. Me and my friends, when we used to go to the combat zone to watch those, um, we would call it a Chinese ending. If every single named character was dead on the on the ground at the end of the end of the movie.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

Sounds very Shakespearean.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

Yeah, it is very Hamlet-esque.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Shakespearean tragedies, everyone dies.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

But but that's a reality, that's a that's a possibility um in a real encounter. Uh, you know, we the name of the podcast is Unfair Fights because as we say, if if outside of sports, there's no such thing. There's no weight classes. Um I was talking to my uh one of my son-in-laws about jujitsu. Uh he's a Brazilian jujitsu practitioner, and it's pretty well accepted in that style that you give up a full belt rank over 10 years or 20 pounds. Yeah. So somebody's 10 years younger than you and 20 pounds heavier than you, if you're two ranks ahead of them, that you're equal.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Many years ago, I was in a sparring class. Um, these might have actually been two separate sparring classes at the same dojo, but they they fit together here. I was working with a guy who was an eagle claw specialist, equal, eagle claw uh practitioner. Yeah. And I was doing Brazilian jujitsu at the time. And I closed with him and I took him down and I was able to hold him there. We were about the same size. Yeah. In contrast, I decided I was working against a karate black belt who was 275 pounds, and I, unbeknownst to me, had done some wrestling. So I tried to take him down and was pinned on underneath, and there was absolutely nothing I could do.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

No, no. And that's that's the reality of what we're talking about here.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

Yes, I gave up more than 100 pounds and it was over.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Yeah, yeah. That's five ranks.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

That's five ranks. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

It was and I think at some point it's in the diminishing returns, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Well, and so that's that's part of the Filipino approach of the defanging the snake. If he's swinging for my head and I'm swinging for his hand, I'm gonna get there first.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

And I may be able to end the fight right then and there.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

Yeah. Yeah. So for those who aren't familiar, is is there a difference between Arnece and Kali, or are they just different names for the same thing?

SPEAKER_01 32:12

So Kali is the term that is used very popularly in the U.S. Um, I understand there's some controversy about it, particularly in the Philippines. Um, the two terms I believe that are heard most commonly in the Philippines are Arnice and Escrima.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Yeah, I've heard of Screma as well.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

Right, but these all describe the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

Yeah. Because Dan Asanto, who worked with Bruce Lee, practiced escrima. Is there a difference between Kali, escrima, and and Arnice, or are they all the same? Just different names.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Uh there's different named systems like Inasanto Kali, Pikiti Tertia Kali, um, but apparently Pikiti Tertia Kali at one point was known as Pikiti Tertia Arnese. So Okay. You know, there there's individual styles, and those styles matter. The names just vary.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Yeah, it's a good question.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

So um we're winding down time-wise. Is there i it's interesting to understand these these concepts, these these systems, because you don't have to be a practitioner of that to learn from it.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

Well, and that's why I thought this would be a useful thing to talk about. Um and footwork tends to get fetishized in the Filipino martial arts. And I've I've done a lot of work trying to make sure that I understood what's actually understood that um predilection. You know, like why are we doing this? Okay, so I've trained this footwork pattern. What is this?

SPEAKER_02 33:49

We've always done this.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Give me. Right. So this was my description of those things. Um, this is how I practice, this is how I teach. Um Okay.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

Very cool.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

Yeah, I think that covers it.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

All right. Well, thanks for everybody for joining us, and we'll talk to you again next time.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

All right. Thanks, Patrick.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Thanks, Steve. Talk to you soon. Bye.