SPEAKER_00 0:38

Welcome to Unfair Fight.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Hey Steve, how are you doing? I'm good. How are you, Patrick? I'm very good. And we're going to continue our conversation, as I understand.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Sounds good to me. We're talking about small surface strikes.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Yes, and we talked about a bunch of things in the last episode, as long as we release these things in the right order. And so where did we leave off?

SPEAKER_02 1:05

We had not yet discussed the Sciuto or Tegatna, which is a really important one. And I would also, I think we ought to start with, I'd really like to discuss the Ishinru fist, because we were talking about it just a little bit, and I believe that you after I described it, you called it a Swiss Army knife. And I think it'd be better to go into that just a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Please, yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

But I want to bring up one thing first, which I just saw this morning, and I want to do the citation as best I can.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

It is a uh YouTube channel called Fitness Life, and there was a video on punching uh from about a month ago, and they use this great term, which is why I want to bring this up. They call it the glove paradox. And this has to do that sh with the change in perception of the use of the fist when we got used to wearing big heavy gloves to protect our hands in boxing.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Very good term.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

So a lot of people that I know haven't actually punched someone in anger. Um most of the people I grew up with have.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Well, there's that generational thing we've talked about.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Yeah. And so um it it isn't like the movies. So I I watched an episode of The Rookie last night, and it's a good show, and you know, and they had a big brawl and and he took down a biker with a with a big punch. And uh punching someone in the head with a regular fist is very often gonna result in damage to that that at hand.

unknown 2:39

Right?

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Yes. And if it's the knuckles of the first two fingers, that is a boxer's fracture, and the bottom two, that is a bar room fracture.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Right. And so it's you know, it's possible that you can, you know, have the right form. And and one of the things that we didn't talk about in that regard is exposure time. So so the concept is you know, pounds per square inch. We we we have the analogy of if I stand on your chest in a work boot, it's uncomfortable. If I stand on your chest in a stiletto, you're dead. Right. Okay. But there's also the idea, one of the reasons that martial artists pull back their fists isn't to just prepare for the next move, it's to leave the force with the target. If I hit and I and I stay in contact afterwards, it's it's kind of like cars hitting each other, right? If you get if you get pu if you get punched with a jab, the person who's delivering the jab, they they take a lot less force than if they follow through.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Yes. The and in boxing, the jab is really your your distance and your speed, but it is definitely not your power.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Right. So there's this thing about, you know, if I if I go through the target, I'm br I'm delivering all my force. And and as long as I don't stop at the surface of the target, I'm okay. You you've seen the the video of, you know, they try to break the board and don't, and then they they really get hurt. But if they break the board and go through it, it it doesn't harm them. There's physics involved here.

unknown 4:18

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

Many years ago, I treated someone who had tried to break a brick in a demonstration.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

And the brick broke down.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Well, it did not break the first time. And this first this person said that their hand went numb. So they tried it again, they broke the brick. Come to see me nine days later, and their hand is very, very swollen.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

I took an X-ray and they had pens put in that hand the next day.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Yeah, that I mean, we've said this before. You it if the if if your martial arts training or use injures you, you're doing something wrong. Something's not wrong. Right. Correct. It shouldn't injure you. And so um, you know, if you strike someone and pull back, then they receive the impact and you can you know you can escape some of the some of the damage. Um and and I I maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that's not physics, but my understanding is that that's that's how it works. And my experience is that's how it works.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Well, it's an it's instructive to think about crumple zones in cars.

SPEAKER_01 5:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

Um, because what we're talking about is the physics principle of impulse and um elastic versus inelastic collisions. So um an inelast an elastic collision is two things hit and they bounce off. No damage to either one. It just uh they kind of reflect off each other. Inelastic is something that breaks or deforms. And cars use this in the crumple zones to slow the forces down. And by slowing that down, it reduces um, it allows your body much more time to cope with it. So the faster the impact is, the faster the force is delivered, to some degree can affect that. But I also don't want to screw up the physics because I have to actually sit there and sit down and write it out to make sure that I got it right.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Yeah. Um I mean, if I hit some if you hit somebody in the stomach or in a muscle, then it's like hitting an airbag. It's you're you're still gonna imply force, do damage, things like that. Um but if you do, if you hit the skull, the skull is uh the head is a very tantalizing but dangerous target. Just so much bump up there.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Yeah, yeah. So with the Ishinru fist, what we do, uh, and I'm gonna describe this and then I'm gonna talk about it in really specific anatomical terms, just so people can look it up if they want to. Sure. So we take we form the regular fist, four fingers rolled in as normal, and then we take the tip of the thumb and we put it on the second joint of the index finger, and we pop it up so it's pointing away from the rest.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

When you say second joint, you mean second joint from the hand, not second joint from the tip.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Well, actually, it's second joint either direction. It's specifically what's known as the proximal interphalangeal joint.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Okay, so it's the it's the one between it's the joint between the knuckle and the uh the there's the knuckle, there's where the rings are worn, and then there's another joint. It's that's it's that's that joint. Or that is it metatarsal? No, that's foot. Is it that?

SPEAKER_02 7:39

It's phalange. Yeah, phalanx, excuse me.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Yeah, okay. So it's it's the base of the finger, what we'd call the base of the finger. It's that joint after the base of the finger.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Right.

unknown 7:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

So with this fist, we've obviously got the hammer fist on the bottom, which really isn't any different to anybody else's. We can hit with the top to the first and second finger knuckles, which really isn't all that different from what other people do. And then we've got three more surfaces. Oh, we've got the back fist. Again, not a whole lot different. So this second joint, this um proximal interphalangeal joint, this is where we knock on doors. And this is really quite robust. The only thing about it is it's actually hard to put a lot of power behind.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Actually, that is the best description I think I've heard is the the knocking on door.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Because that you get the thumb, your thumb isn't where it normally is in a fist. Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

You get it off your fingers so you don't smack your thumb into the door.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

Exactly. Okay, yeah. That it's the door knock.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

Yeah. And swatting-wise, you know, going across somebody's nose, this is quite the shot. And then when we look at the thumb tip, we have two different uh strikes you can do. So if I'm looking away from myself, the part that I see on my thumb on that first bone of your thumb, we can strike that way, and that's going up. Or we can strike away from hang on a sec. I gotta sneeze stuck. Um going away from going away from ourselves. So you can hit both directions with the thumb. And this is not a strong weapon, but on a delicate target, it is awful to get with.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Just awful. So if you watch the the if you're familiar with the Brazilian jujitsu folks, uh, which you'd be have to be living in a cave to not be familiar with them. Not to be true. Um, I have a lot of respect. But um one of the things that's interesting is if you watch the uh the two brothers who are the the current generation.

SPEAKER_02 9:47

Um exactly.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Um, one of the first things they say in their combatives course is well, you know, martial arts, traditional martial arts try to teach you to be, you know, accurate in a way that you can never be. And this is them trying to dissuade people from looking at other martial arts as credible, which which is never a good look. But you know, I I I certainly understand it from a you know a business practice and a and a and maybe that they believe that. Um so all the one of the things that that we have to talk about is the fact that we everything we're talking about requires accuracy. Everything we're talking about requires control. Uh you're not gonna flail and use any of the things that we've talked about. You know, you're not gonna find it.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

No, and and and this is an interesting point because I think under the stress of a real situation, and it has probably been three decades since I've been in a fist fight, so it's hard to remember. But if you think you're about to get hurt, it's probably fairly hard not to flail to some degree. It's chaotic.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Yeah. Well, so uh when I look back to my time in the military, we we dealt with prisoners and um I've had to deal with a you know ro rowdy soldiers, and that was well over 30 years ago. Um and if I felt in control, which I typically did, that meant that I could block anything that was coming. I I it wasn't I felt that I was like trying to deal with the situation, then I could pick and choose what I did. If I felt like I was in trouble, then finer points went out the window. So, like you you bring up a great example of of the nose. If you're just trying to take somebody, you know, who's who's out of control and settle them down, that's a technique you can do. But anytime you try not to kill someone, you're putting yourself at a at a risk, at a disadvantage.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

You bring up a uh different but related point. So the way I talk about this and the way that I teach our niece is so we're doing stick fighting stuff and we use a semi-sparring drill. So response A for attack B is pre-rehearsed, but you don't know whether you're going to get attack B, attack uh M, attack X, you don't know which is coming. So one of the things that I have concluded looking at our material is that to do all the fancy stuff, all of it, you have to be a beat ahead of your opponent. They have to be reacting to you. If you can take control of that factor, you have time to get stuff done. But if you are a beat behind yourself, you are playing catch up, and so your responses need to be you need to have practiced them uh in advance, and they need to be much more general. So, for example, hands going up and then being able to swat across the face with the knuckles at short range might buy you the second to get yourself a beat ahead or at least a beat even.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Yeah. Well, and the the whole title of this podcast is Unfair Fights. Every fight is slanted in someone's direction, either because of experience. Um I think again, back to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, it's pretty widely accepted that um I think it's 10 years and 20 pounds negates a belt. Right. So if if I'm 60 and you're 40, I know you're not 40, but you're close.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

Um I'm not that close anymore.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

I'm definitely 60. Um, and you know, I outweigh you by 20 pounds, then maybe we're equal. Right. But if you outweigh me by 20 pounds and you got 20 years on me, then you know, there's three, there's a three belt difference against me. Right? And this is one reason why. And I don't want to talk about uh, you know, Brazilian jujitsu belts, things like that.

SPEAKER_02 13:56

No, but but this is a this is a place where weapons come in. Yeah, well because it could I mean if you if you're dealing with somebody where there's a big disparity of force, the law recognizes that you may have greater reason to fear for your health and safety.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

I think it depends on what state you're in.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

It might.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

So let's not give legal advice here.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

No, no, definitely not. Definitely not. I'm a chiropractor, not a lawyer.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Yeah, there you go. I don't even play one on TV. Um okay, so so understand uh we understand that there's there's fights where you feel in control and can choose choose your weapon. There's fights where you're like under the gun. And actually, under the gun might cause you to do more damage, might cause you to actually try to break somebody's nose because of, like you said, the time that it buys. You might try to knock the wind out of somebody. Um, knocking the wind out of somebody is one of the most effective uh defangers there is because when somebody's gasping on the ground, it doesn't matter how much they weigh, they're gasping on the ground.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Right. It's it's affected their ability to do anything.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Right. Yeah, yeah. I think I think I heard once that all death is a lack of oxygen, ultimately.

SPEAKER_02 15:11

I I think that's probably right, one one way or another.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yeah. So so this, you know, we're talking about idiosyncrasies of like choosing choosing the the arrowhead on the weapon. Um, but it it makes a big difference on like what kind of results you're looking for. Whether again, whether it's to to to disable, to to seriously injure. Some of the some of the killing blows are all delivered by a very sharper a scalpel as opposed to a sledgehammer.

unknown 15:38

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Well, uh at to this point, I think we talked about it just a little bit last time, and this is going to lead into the shooto very well, that you effectively have two choices. You can hit somebody with a sharp piece of bone, or you can hit them with a muscle, which is gonna protect your bones. The hammer fist is protecting your bones with your muscles. Right. The best example of the bone is hitting them with your elbow. Yeah. It's big, strong. Um it's a great weapon. It's just short range.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Right. Yeah. So you you know, if somebody's trying, if somebody's falling on you, you can impale them on your elbow.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Well, right. Yes. So there's uh my views on this are constantly evolving because this is something I'm researching a lot right now. And one guy who I have followed pretty closely on this material is Evan Pontazzi. Um, and he has he likes to talk about the Bubishi and the different hand forms that are found in the Bubishi. And this reminds me, I have a correction in case uh sensei Joe Jennings is listening. I was wrong about your book. I checked it, and there is a chapter on hand weapons. I apologize. I'd still love to hear from you if you'd like to reach out. Um, but Pantazzi talks about the six G hands of the Bubishi, which are just different hand forms, and one of them is the iron sword. And he makes this argument that you wouldn't call that that iron generally needs to be forged and it needs to be hard. So, generally speaking, about striking with bone. And what he likes to use for the uh iron sword is actually what is known as the ulnar styloid process. So if you look at the pinky side of your hand and you slide all the way down to the wrist and you start going into your forearm, that first big bump, that's part of your ulna, the whole forearm bone on the pinky side. So it's big, it's basically the other end from hitting with your elbow of the same bone. And pardon me. Um that means that that can penetrate. Which I think is your point about sharp pieces of bone for killing blows. Um, and I really like this, but what I have found is that it only works striking straight down or backhand. And one of my conceptions is that I need to be able to strike forehand, backhand, and straight.

SPEAKER_01 18:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

So it doesn't cover one of those. Actually, it doesn't cover two, because I can't hit straight, so I've got to go back to my poem strike. And it doesn't hit with the inward motion, so I need to do something else, whatever that may be.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Yeah. So uh I when I was a kid, I was watching a lot of Kung Fu movies. And one of the perceptions that I got that that I've I've read is the case, but I who knows whether it is, is that back in the days that we would call like the Wild West of China and Kung Fu, people would learn multiple arts that were specializations in various areas. So you might have one art that's all kicking, and you might have another one that's all blocking, and and you'd mix and match it almost like uh you know those those books the kids have where they have a different head and a different legs and a different torso, and you can mix and match. It's almost like that. And so you would get a unique fighting style out of someone who's like, you know, horse stance, phoenix eye fist, and you know, circle blocks, and those three things was their style. And that's what worked for them. It did. And so one of the things that I think we should call out is that you don't have to do all these things. You like Weichiru, which I keep reverting back to, um the shoken is the most common, you know, sharp fist weapon. You know, we we do have the Shuto and we have palm heel and things like that. But um, you know, if it is as Bruce Lee said, if if it works, use it.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Well, right. And it's interesting that you bring this up because for me, the way that you guys use your shoken, which I respect, I'm not saying it doesn't work. I can't make it work.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Yeah, you know, 40, 50 years of it makes it a lot easier. But but yeah, it's it's and and it's you have other weapons that are that serve the same role.

SPEAKER_02 20:08

Right. Now, one of the things about the Ishinru fist is that the founder was particularly enamored of it. And I think it might have been because he can do exactly what we were talking about. He can hit a bunch of different ways without having to change anything.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Yeah. Well, and there's something to be said about that. So so the you know, there's styles that developed over a thousand years, and then there's most styles which developed because the the the the founder said, hey, this is a way I like to do it, and they they taught it that way. Um it's very difficult to find anything that's that's actually rooted in the thousand-year training, let alone completely untouched by it.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

Yeah, and with looking at my looking at Ishinruo, I see three things. Um Tatsuashi Mobuku liked clever self-defense, almost uh military quick kill kinds of techniques. He uh liked internal power. He was really big on that because he wasn't a big guy and he was facing really big Americans. And uh he wanted to preserve Okinawan culture, which is why we have so many different things in our system. I think he was and he was from what we understand, he was a for an Okinawan fortune teller as well.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

Oh, really? I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

Yeah. So I, you know, Okinawa was just devastated in the Battle of Okinawa. And I think he was saying, all right, we got this stuff, these big Americans actually want this. I want to try to preserve something.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Yeah. I told you before Kanai Weichi was a chiropractor.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

Yes, yes, Bone Center. Yes, right. Chinese Bone Center.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:48

There's a long history of association between those two.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Yes, yeah. Um on the on the topics before, we did have we covered it. You wanted to talk about The shuto as well, didn't you?

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Yeah, I want to talk about that just a little bit more. We started to. So, my current thinking is when I when I do this with my own hand, um, I pull my thumb in real tight on the inside of my palm, uh basically along the line between my index and middle finger. So that tightens up this side of my hand. And then I try to pull my little finger out as far as I can, and then I crank my hand back in the opposite direction. So I end up with this big mound of muscle on the side, and it's still smaller than a hammer fist. And what I have found with it is that I can hit in a forehand, I can hit in a backhand, I can hit in a linear way, all against hard targets. Um, walk up to a door frame and tap it with your hand. If it hurts, that's probably not good for hitting somebody in the head.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

Whereas muscle is really good. And the the thing that I find is interesting about this is um there's two connections. One is in Tamiki Aikido, which is one of the styles I practice, we talk about the tagatana, which means hand sword. And all of our striking techniques are another discussion altogether that's different. But supposedly this is what you're you should use. So that's one connection. The other one is striking in sumo.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Now it may not seem much because they're just swinging an arm, but it's a 400-pound man swinging an arm at you, and his arm is the size of my leg.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

So if he hits me with that palm, it's probably gonna take my head off.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

So it um one of my teachers, Matt Dorsey, um, 10th Don in Ishanru, fabulous guy, incredible martial artist. I watched him working on Joe Jennings' old Makawara, and he didn't have any padding on it. Matt had just wrapped an old white belt around it. Like I couldn't believe this. And he's punching it full power. Now, I can't do that, and I'm not going to do that. But I was impressed because I don't want to get hit with that.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

No. Yeah, I hear you.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

He's clearly he's practiced it for 40 years, kind of like your uh Ipan Ken. I'm sorry, you call it Shoken. Shoken.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Shoken, yeah. Yeah. He uh Phoenix I Fist is the I I I'm still a little murky on it. Uh when Kambo Mueichi studied in Fukian province, uh he was studying Ponge Nun, which is half hard, half soft. And um supposedly he learned um Phoenix I Fist, which is the Shokan, but it's also in the Kata. It's in Seisan, it's in Sansehru. Um, so it's it's got to be part, maybe it's a component or uh uh I don't I don't know how it was taught. I would love we'd love to know how that was taught, but we I don't think I don't think it's documented, or at least I haven't seen it.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

Is the shoken practiced in your I think you guys call them your kumite, your your I think there's nine drills, something like that.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

So there's kata. Uh there's eight kata, there's there's different kumites, but the kumites aren't traditional as far as I know. I I don't think the kumites were um I think the kumites were were brought in by weichi, not by not by kanbum in China. Okay. Okay. At least at least that's the impression I get. The you know the the thing about all Okinawan styles is they were they were taken, they were soft styles for the most part, brought from China, that then hardened because of the Okinawan culture. Okinawa is kind of a macho culture, as is Korean culture, and therefore they they like the hard stuff.

SPEAKER_02 25:51

And they like the fist in particular.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Exactly. But if you look under the covers of Weichiru, of Fongei noon, Fukian Province uh temple, then there's a lot of soft, there's a lot of Tai Chi, like in fact, there's a there's a an extra kata. There were three kata in Fongei Noon, um, but supposedly there was a fourth, and the fourth um is called Superenpei. And it's in Goju. Yes, but it's it's considered it may be a lost kata. It may be not learned by Kamba Muei Chi because he wasn't at the he wasn't at the temple long enough. But Super Mpe has 108 motions, which is absolutely analogous to Chaolin. Shaolin's Tai Chi.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

That number shows up all over the place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

Yeah. In Wei Chiru, the the the kata that were created that were brought in from China have number names. San Chin, three conflicts, San Sei Ru, Sei-san. They're numbers. The ones that are named after people, like Kan Shiwa, Kanbomu, and Shishiwa, those are those were created by the Okinawans.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Yeah, and in Ishanru, we have Sei San. Um we have San Chin. Um, we also have Seiu Chin, and I have um I don't know enough of the linguistic stuff, but I believe it actually comes from 72.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Okay, so it might be a variation of Sanseiru. Sanseiro is 72? Um I'd have to go back to look at the Japanese, but it's it's yeah, it's it's the third kata of Weichi.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Okay. I think I'm I'm showing I'm I'm showing that I I study alone way too much.

SPEAKER_02 27:40

Well, you and me both. So I'm Yeah. Um and you know, I wanted to say one more thing about the Ishin Rufus. There is also a theory that it turns into the Shoken.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

I don't know anybody who practices it, but that is a theory that's been thrown around.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Okay. Very cool. Very cool.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

Yeah. Um so the I think the last thing on this is the ridge hand. And this is a this is a place where I am outside Wei Chi making a comment. Okay. So, you know, it's clearly not authoritative. But the friend of mine who first taught me about the Boshikan on the thumb, uh, he used the uh first metacarpal, which is the big bone at the base of your thumb. And that was his striking um surface. And I I've told you, I watched him do push-ups on it and not just push-ups. I can do push-ups on it. I've built up to that. He did jumping push-ups. I have never in my life seen it. It was one of the scariest and most impressive displays I have seen. Um and Evan Pontazzi talks about it and says, this is the largest bone of the hand. Why wouldn't you use it?

SPEAKER_01 28:54

Yeah, in our Sansei, in our Cesan, there's a move where you go and you strike the temples. Okay. With that, with that inner part of the hand. Basically, the um if you curl the thumb in, the that that surface there.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

On the palm side with the thumb curled in?

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Yeah, basically, if you're looking at your hand from the look at the back of your hand, the the uh the surface area that's in the middle, towards the middle of each other. And then that's after that strike, there's strikes with the thumb.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

Is that in Sasan? Uh-huh. Okay, yeah, I've seen that. I know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

It um the thing is the classic ridge hand, which that first move sounds like, um orthopedically, there's not a great striking surface to go to fold your thumb inward and hit with the index side of your hand. It's just like I know in the Domin group they use it as uh actually as kind of a floppy weapon for very, very soft targets. Um but uh what I wonder about is this Boshikan, like my friend taught me. I wonder if that's the real ridge hand.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

I don't know. I I I but where it's going in where I see it applied, it's it's usually like to the temple.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

And which and he would agree, I I believe. Not I'm I'm not gonna use his name because I don't want to take his name in vain, and I and I want this to be my error and not attributed to him. But I don't think he would use this to just anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Yeah. Yeah, and I I don't I don't get the I when I do it, it's not the knuckle, it's the whole surface area there. It's not a specific knuckle, it's a flatter. Okay. Again, maybe I'm doing it wrong. I'm I'm seeking uh more um how how should I say this? I'm seeking out getting with another a weichy school, a new weighty school. My instructor died a couple of years ago, which I may have mentioned. Bob Blazedell was my instructor from when I was very young until he died um over two years ago. And I'm you know at a point now where I think I'm gonna go to a a school. But even with Bob, I would see him regularly multiple times per year, but I would be in my head doing things alone so so much, so every day. Um it'll be a different experience to um uh to go and and do school. And I'm being I'm being uh encouraged on by our audio engineer and my son-in-law, Aaron, um that's good uh to go and join him at his school, which is uh Buzz Durkins in in Atkinson. So I'll I'm looking forward to it. I've known Buzz for a long time and and I think highly of him and all of his instructors. So that it'll be fun. It's just weird. It's it's a it's a transition uh back to something I did 30 years ago going to classes. But I haven't been to a class as a student for 30 years, in which the world has changed. Yeah, I mean I've I've been able to observe um, you know, my my grandson's you know gotten rank with with Buzz and Aaron at the school. Um, and he can't defend himself because he's muted right now. Uh but I'm looking forward to it. I went to WeichiCon this year and they're very good people. I can tell. Um, because there's always the concern that I'm gonna go there and they're gonna say wrong, and that's not their culture, that's not the way uh they they play. And and my instructor is legendary as um uh difficult to get along with, to put it mildly. So um so I think I'm more affable. And I but it'll be interesting to see what they see that I and what I see and compare it.

SPEAKER_02 32:41

Well, the the one other plug that I would put in here for this discussion is it is extraordinarily instructive to hit a macawara. And that's not a heavy bag. A macawara is a board that springs back. Now, the first macawara I built was really stupid. I got one of those commercial ones and I bolted it to the um foundation of my house. So I was punching a pad over concrete. Not a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

No give.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

I didn't hurt myself, but I'd never do it again.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

Um, and a padded board that springs back tests you all the way to your feet.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

Yeah, I've I've seen people hurt themselves though, break knuckles and stuff. So it you gotta go slowly, you gotta start slowly.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

Definitely start slowly. But I mean, like when I make them, um, I put a pad that I of uh foam from like a yoga block, that's a good density, and then I wrap it with at least 200 yards of paracord.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Um yeah, you said paracord. I've seen rope used, but paracords is a little bit more than a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Rope is fine. I I just find that because I want just a little, just a small amount of calusing to protect my skin. You know, because it's one thing that happens to people when they punch folks is they tear the skin on their knuckles.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

But it just a heavy bag gives a very different feel, even a floor bag than a macawara does, and it really changed things when I built mine because I realized it's very clear what does not work. Right. Yeah. So thank you for indulging me on this topic. I love this.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

No problem. Yeah, I mean, uh half an hour's blurred by very, very quickly. Uh, we're gonna probably get back to guests again soon. Um but it's always good to come back and just like discuss things amongst ourselves. Uh there's so many good topics, you know, the use of throws and you know, the different utilities of different styles. My my as my grandson started doing boxing and really found that to be fun. Um, and was surprised to see that I could still block, even though he was boxing. It's not like these things stopped working. Um I had to tell him some stories from West Point that I'll share. In other words, we have plenty to talk about in future episodes, so hopefully people will join us. Fantastic. Well, this has been fun. Thanks, Steve. We'll talk to you next time. Thanks, everybody. All right. Bye bye.